Max Pears kindly had me on his podcast as a guest, so I was glad to return the favor and sit him down for Dev to Dev. We've never worked together, but it didn't take long to find common ground.

What I loved most about this one is how clear the thread is. Max is candid about why games mattered to him as a kid, and that reason is still running underneath everything he's done since, from tiny mobile games to some of the biggest projects in the industry, and now to leading a team of his own.

I was also struck by how many times he simply walked up to someone, showed them his work and asked. His advice to students on that front is worth the listen on its own. We get into contracting too, why he chose it and what he'd tell anyone thinking of trying it, and what stepping into leadership has really been like.

The full conversation is below. Settle in.

Alex (00:00)
Cool, excellent. Thanks, Max. Thanks for coming on my podcast after you kindly had me on yours. Good timing. I appreciate you coming on, and I'm excited to dig into your career and get to know you. We've never worked together, but like I say, you kindly had me on as a guest. I always kick my conversation off with my favorite first question: what first inspired you about video games?

Max (00:23)
Mate, that's an easy one. I feel there are many people who'll relate to this. One of my earliest memories is running up the stairs because my uncle had come to see that my dad had finally got the PlayStation, the first PlayStation. They were stuck to the TV. It was the boss fight from Metal Gear Solid, Solid Snake versus Grey Fox, and especially as a young kid, what could be cooler than a robot ninja? These two people I loved and admired were so engrossed in this moment, and I was watching my dad hit buttons on the controller and then see stuff happening on screen. That was the first proper gateway into video games, and it really struck a chord.

And you know yourself, mate, working in that phase of PlayStation, it was this massive transition to 3D spaces, with "cinematic" language being introduced into games. They could engage with the story in different ways that weren't available before. To me it was just wow. Other games piled on top of that, like Final Fantasy, and that grew my passion further, but that was my first moment.

Alex (02:22)
That's what connected you to games, from your dad and uncle's perspective. I'm interested in the 3D, more cinematic nature of it. Had you engaged with 2D, 16-bit machines at all, and they hadn't grabbed you? Was it the 3D-ness of Metal Gear Solid that really caught you?

Max (02:42)
My dad had shown me some 2D things on his PC and laptop. At school, I remember, in year one or year two, we had a simple kids' game, cutting edge at the time, where you solved maths questions to get a mouse outside. Maths isn't my strong point, so that didn't land. I think the controller just felt easier to grasp in terms of input to output, versus the 2D games on my dad's laptop or the school PC. It's funny, because if you gave an adult a keyboard or a controller now, it'd be the reverse; people feel more comfortable on a keyboard. But as a younger kid, what looked like the lesser inputs connected better.

Alex (04:03)
So the machine itself was more approachable, and it felt like it was for you. Interesting. Where did you grow up?

Max (04:10)
I grew up in England, in Yorkshire, in a small town just outside York. I don't want to give much more away in case people come looking. I don't live there now, guys.

Alex (04:23)
You can't hunt him down there. Do you have siblings, or other family members besides your dad and uncle, who played?

Max (04:30)
I've got a twin brother and a younger sister, and we all played games, even my mum. I remember a great session with Time Crisis on the PS1, me and my mum playing it. She was a great sport about it, though she wasn't very good. My dad was into computing and had grown up with video games before that. Eventually we all faded off. My sister still plays The Sims, but that's about as far as she goes. My brother still plays, and my dad's an avid player to this day. I think he's on the World of Warcraft Forever train right now.

Alex (05:32)
Cross-generational, a very gaming family. Gaming was in your family's DNA. And growing up in a small town, were there other people at school? Was gaming a big part of the culture, or only really at home?

Max (05:45)
I'm sure you'll feel it as well, Alex, mate. Watching kids now, everyone's accepting of people playing games, versus getting bullied for talking about games, which is a very different world that you and I can relate to. I had a great best friend growing up who played games. He had the Sega Genesis, so 2D, but he was really into them. Friends came over and we'd play multiplayer, local couch co-op, because that's all you had unless you had a PC.

Eventually, in secondary school, I found more like-minded people, and you could see the transition, especially for my generation. I remember Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare, the true original. GTA had its cultural impact, but Modern Warfare had such a ripple effect on people who weren't big game players. Now we were all talking about it. The Xbox 360 had also started to bring console gaming online, so that became more common. There was a real shift at that moment, with games starting to be more accepted. A friend of mine, Joe Ford, who now works in audio at Riot Games, and I were probably the only ones thinking about games as a career.

Alex (07:28)
That was going to be my next question. Console games were part of your culture and your friend group; you grew up with them. When did that love of playing turn into a dream of working in games?

Max (07:45)
Man, as you mentioned, games feel like they come out of nowhere, especially in that time period. I'm curious how it was for you growing up, mate. A lot of that time, Japan especially, from a small town in Yorkshire, could have been a whole different world. It didn't feel possible. I didn't realize how many studios there were here in the UK that were really starting to boom. We talk about GTA, and everyone would have thought that's an American studio.

Once I started to figure that stuff out... and look, kids, don't follow my example here, but one time I was reading a strategy guide under the table in science class. Resident Evil Outbreak had just come out, and it was the first time I'd bought a strategy guide myself. Relics have gone by now, mate. I should've been paying attention to science, and the teacher said, "There's nothing in here for video games. You can't make a living out of video games." I was like, we'll see.

But finding out what that even meant was so limited. To this day I'm subscribed to Edge magazine. My dad read it, then I started to, and you'd come across interviews. You'd start to see that there are human beings who make these games, not mythical beings over in Asia. From that point I started to see what I could do, and we moved on to making small things. I learned ActionScript with Adobe Flash, and I made my first ever game when I was fifteen. Nothing amazing, but I made a point of finishing it, three days before my birthday or something. Asteroids would come down, you had buttons to move your spaceship left or right, and you'd see how long you lasted until it blew up, with points accruing.

No one was teaching this at my school, so I had to find an IT teacher who wasn't my teacher and ask him to teach me. So many incredible teachers played a huge role in all of this, and I had a supportive family as well. I definitely know some families where it was, "No, not a chance, you're not doing that." Then Little Big Planet came out with its level editor, and I started playing around with that. Same with Gears of War; there was a small editor, a spin-off of Unreal UDK at the time. And the first Unity tutorial I ever watched was about making a little worm move and shoot fireballs while turrets shot at it. It took forever, but I learned from it.

Then I started to investigate university courses. Compared to yourself, I feel very fortunate. Even if some of it wasn't perfect at that time, there were people with experience teaching, people who had released games helping out. Without their help, I don't think I would have made it into the industry.

Alex (12:05)
It sounds like there was a desire to go beyond play, and it was self-motivated, with Flash and ActionScript. What triggered that? Not everybody makes the leap from "I love playing games" to "can I actually make them?" You mentioned LBP and Gears, which maybe came afterwards, but what first triggered you to make your own stuff?

Max (12:33)
Man, I'll try to keep this as light as possible, but it's a sad story in its own regard. I lost my mum when I was eight, and games were my escapism for that. These things had helped me move, accept and grow, and I wished I could give that back to others, to tell these stories that had meant so much to me and aided my growth as a human being. I felt this medium could be so much larger than it was ever given credit for.

You and I sit in a position today where games are normalized. Most people in the world play them; the gender gap is almost fifty-fifty when you consider mobile. That wasn't the case when you and I were growing up. Now soundtracks are being nominated at the Grammys, which would have been scoffed at back in the day. The BAFTAs are an everyday occurrence; I've been fortunate enough to be a judge there, and some games I've contributed to have been nominated. It's a different time. We talk about the revolution of 3D: I remember when I first worked on mobile, you put "3D" in the title screen because it was a wow moment that mobiles could play 3D.

So yes, man, this was a medium that helped me. This was something that allowed me to escape, to grow, to grieve, and it's something I wanted to give back to, to contribute to in any way I could.

Alex (14:38)
Wow, that's powerful. You wanted to give back to something that had been so important to you. Do you think that really drove you to look for any opportunity you could to get into the industry, to make stuff and learn?

Max (14:56)
Massively so, mate. When I say small town, it wasn't a village of five people; it was still under a hundred thousand. But you didn't know where these things were made, so it was also a way for me to get out. You lived abroad as well. The opportunity to do something you love and see the world while you do it, not everyone gets that. For me it was a chance to chase something. Kids dream about being footballers. I dreamed about being an actor or a thespian at some point, but when the other kids were out playing football, I had a strategy guide for, I think, Black & White 2, because I was so enamored with these things. I don't want to say I was a ladies' magnet at the time, but definitely not. It's something that forever stuck with me.

Alex (16:08)
Once you could actually start making stuff, that was very powerful and drove you. You mentioned going to university. Did you study a particular part of game design?

Max (16:22)
Just global games. We were still very early in terms of what a university games course was. I did a placement year, which is why I made mobile games, and it wasn't until partway through that I realized the difference between game design and level design. I'm more specialized in level design now, but I've been through different parts of game design in my career, technical, different mechanics. Level design is my bread and butter.

It was still a broad scope. In your first year you learn everything from 3D modeling and animation to a bit of coding and level design, and then you pick where to specialize. My university was Teesside. At the time, Teesside, Bournemouth and Abertay were the big three. I didn't achieve high grades at school, and I just remember going to Teesside and thinking, this is where I want to be. We had people who had worked on the Driver franchise, 24: The Game, and many more. They were people who had truly done it, living a life I aspired to one day reach. That's what appealed to me.

Alex (18:03)
Teesside and Abertay have both come up with previous guests this season. They sound like very influential universities. So you get a broad grounding, and then a placement. How did it feel to actually go into a team and start making stuff?

Max (18:25)
First, to any students who might be listening, really pay attention to what I'm about to say. The company was called Fog Media. I don't think it exists anymore, sadly. Fog stood for free online games at the time. One of their managers, a lovely guy called Craig, gave a talk at our university. After his talk, so many people left without saying a word. I went over to him, showed him the stuff I was working on, and made a point of saying, "Hey, I'm here. If you've got something, I'm your guy. I am ready." I think I was their first placement, and it worked out. For the design course there was only me and one other guy, and his placement was at Microsoft, though I don't know if it was games per se.

So I really want to stress to any students: take advantage. I occasionally do talks at universities, and we want to talk, we want to help, we want to hear your thoughts. There's no such thing as a stupid question. We're literally there to help, so don't squander the opportunity. I remember no one said anything, and I was happy as a clam that no one did, but also dumbfounded that no one did. So seize those opportunities.

Alex (20:20)
It's great advice.

Max (20:22)
Mate, I was a fish out of water on that placement. I think they were expecting someone with more of a coding background, and I had so little. I remember calling my dad and saying I was going to get fired, and he took that as me wanting to quit. That was never the case. It was imposter syndrome; I didn't know if my skills matched. We ended up using an engine called Construct 2, which has a visual scripting element.

The first game I made, most people would say it's nothing amazing, but I was over the moon. It was a tower-stacking game: a crane holds a brick, you time the moment to drop it, and you build as high as you can, and different bricks have different abilities. Another one was named after our artist, Stan: Stan's Parking Jam, a car puzzle where you move stuff out of the way to get your car out of the parking lot. I asked the boss if I could take it home over the weekend, because you could fit it all on a USB drive, and make new levels. That they'd trust me to take the whole project home on a USB and make levels in my spare time, then come back and update it, was amazing.

My skill set wasn't one-for-one with what they wanted, but what a great experience. I didn't realize at the time that the biggest team I ever had was four people on a project; most of the time it was two of us. We didn't have a huge amount of time, but we still made stuff, and one of our games made it into the top fifty of the app charts, which is a huge achievement. It's not Angry Birds money, because if it was, I'd be somewhere not talking to you. We also found that, depending on the market, China really loved a racing game we made, which blew me away, because it didn't do so well in Europe. It was a big learning curve, but I learned more about coding, how to work with people, and how to make something pretty quickly.

Alex (23:25)
Excellent. It sounds like a rapid turnaround, idea to ship in a very short time. A great way of getting your feet wet in the process, as opposed to going into a studio and working on something for multiple years and maybe shipping it, maybe not.

Max (23:46)
Mate, I was extremely jealous of the other lad who got Microsoft, because of the prestige. And I say this as an insult to myself: mobile games were just on the come up. What you can do on mobile now is so different from what you could do in 2012 when I was making them. I thought, who's going to play this? This isn't the story of the true games I love. It was so silly, because as you said, such a great opportunity. I released seven games in that one year, and each one allowed me to get better. Each had great highs, and some had bad lows, but you kept coming in, and I got opportunities to work on them at the weekend. I also learned more about coding, which would play a role later in my career. You almost miss that when you join big studios, which are amazing and crazy cool in their own way, but it does change input to output; there's more going on before you see the end result. So that was a huge, fun time for me.

Alex (25:07)
Great. So you do your placement at Fog Media, you finish uni; when do you get your first proper role in the industry?

Max (25:19)
Proper role. Just a quick one first. There was a small competition called Dare to Be Digital, up in Scotland at Abertay University, where a team of five of us would try to build a proper prototype in eight weeks. We made an augmented reality tower-defense game about bringing your imaginary friend to life, called Pygmy Panic. The university was paying for the five of us to do this, and we met some incredible people.

I want to share a quick side note, because we talked about wanting to connect being part of why I got into games. This is still my favorite moment in my career of making games. At the end there was a big exhibition where people from all over Dundee came over, and a man came with his granddaughter, who he said struggled to connect with people. She picked up the iPad and looked at the little AR creature as it came to life. Our first tutorial was a toy box: you shoot open three latches, the box opens, an island pops out, and then you play the game. He came over to me and said, "When is this out? Because I've never seen her be so engaged, and I've seen her react to this." To me that's still my favorite moment in making games, because I could see it have a meaningful impact. It clearly changed her grandfather's view on games as well. That was beautiful.

It's also where I met a great guy called Andrew Willens, who worked at Ubisoft Reflections at the time. I was able to show him the project and my mobile games, and I'd later show it to the man who would become my lead, Manny Diaz, another superstar in his own right. At the end of uni I was trying to find a job. I turned down a mobile job in Germany because I thought, I've done mobile and I love it, but I want to see if I can make it in the triple-A space. As you and I both know, design roles are few and far between. My friends said, you've spoken to Andrew, and he says there might be something. I went to see Manny, showed him that project, and it blew him away. I was very fortunate to get an internship at Ubisoft Reflections. That was my first introduction to the triple-A space, about 2014.

Alex (28:17)
I'm fascinated already, Max, by the number of times you went and spoke to someone, showed something, asked the question. The advice you gave is really indicative of how you can make your own entry points to a career. And the reaction you got from that family speaks to the reason you make video games: to trigger reactions, to give back, to get people engaged the way games engaged you. Those are fantastic stories.

Max (28:50)
It's the thing that inspires us, day in, day out.

Alex (28:55)
And it still inspires you today. So, Ubisoft Reflections, a great studio. Not too far from you, but still a move.

Max (29:09)
I remember having to ask my dad for money to help pay the deposit on the place I was renting; I made sure to pay that back quickly. Moving up to Newcastle, I said not too far, but I'd gone from Middlesbrough to Sunderland, back to Middlesbrough, up to Scotland, back to Middlesbrough, and now Newcastle. So I was primarily around the north of England at this time.

And what an amazing thing. I know everyone talks ill of Ubisoft now, and I'd say they've lost their way a smidge since I was there, and I don't mean that as an insult to the other devs. But at that time I felt very fortunate to be part of almost the prime years of Ubisoft. Every game they put out was a minimum eight out of ten with critics and players. I was entering on a new franchise, Tom Clancy's The Division. That whole multiplayer looter-shooter space was just coming up; we and Destiny really made a mark on the industry. Ubisoft also had a great way of teaching young devs how to make games, with great structures of leads, seniors and intermediates, a wealth of knowledge.

Because I'd done mobile and learned a bit of coding, I went into more of a technical level design role. I was bricking it there, because my technical lead, Simon Cooper, "Scoop" as I called him, was super smart. Everyone on that team was incredible; if I did names I'd be here all day. It was a great chance to learn the core values: rational level design, how to pace things out correctly, documentation. These weren't things you'd talk about in mobile games, where no one's asking you to look at the design document; there were three of us, so, crack on. Now there were multiple hundreds of people, three studios in total working across the project.

I was in charge of creating prefabs for the open-world events, which as a junior was a really big thing. Snowdrop let us do something Unreal's visual scripting couldn't at the time: collapse fifteen nodes into one. You want to create this type of event? Instead of fifteen nodes, here's one node, and here are the parameters you need exposed. Then it was back-and-forth feedback: maybe we need more creative freedom here, maybe there's too much, how do I simplify this? I started to work on some of the open-world events across some of the districts as well. It was a real lot to contribute to, on a game that was now a franchise in its own right. You and I both know not every game lasts X years. I also did a contract on the mobile version, Division Resurgence. I think it's either last year or this year that's the ten-year anniversary of The Division as a franchise, so to have contributed to three entries in it is something I don't take for granted. Very, very fun.

Alex (33:16)
That's great. Was it a culture shock, going to a team that big with a process that mature?

Max (33:24)
Yes, because I was very much an energetic puppy, so happy and wanting to go, go, go. I went from somewhere that said "hey, go" to "let's rein the leash in a little bit." Very different, but I understood why, and I had great leads. I was also fortunate: we talk about moving abroad, and as a junior they sent me to one of the other studios. I stayed almost a month in Sweden to work with them. My boss at the time, Daniel Molnow, a great guy, said to me, "Max, I want you to be the first one in the office and the last one to leave. Do you understand? You need to represent us, and how you work is a reflection on us." So I put in longer hours than I'd have liked, and their drink prices were ridiculous, so it's not like I could do much anyway.

Alex (34:21)
Interesting. You were given a lot of responsibility, but also thrown a little into the deep end: a big franchise, a big team, a big machine to find your place in. It sounds like you shifted into more of a facilitator role, building pieces that support the content. Did you find that challenging? Did you enjoy it, as opposed to being on the front line making the content?

Max (34:53)
It was definitely a shock, the distance between myself and the actual content. With mobile games it was me and one other person; boom, it's in, and you can play it instantly. Now you've got to wait X hours for a build to be made, then test it, and test with three other people to see the proper result. I was also very nervous, because my lead, Simon, is an incredibly smart man, and I didn't feel I was anywhere near that level of intelligence to be in this more technical role. Imposter syndrome is a real thing, and I definitely missed the creative aspect. But it was very fun to have a footprint that echoed throughout the entire game, because people were taking these templates, and eventually I'd get to make the content again. I got to see the more technical side and have my brain tested. I'm not, by education standards, an intellectual man, but it was great to prove I could do these things.

One of my favorite stories is that Manny, who would become my design director, said his favorite thing was giving me feedback. I'd always say, "Yeah, I'll do it," and he'd watch me get back to my desk and look in dread at how on earth I was going to do the thing I'd just agreed to. But my ethos is: when a director asks you to jump, you say how high.

Alex (36:37)
Absolutely, especially at that time in your career. Those are great opportunities to muck in, get stuff done, learn and grow. You were at Ubisoft for a couple of years, and then you moved to CD Projekt Red. What drove that move?

Max (36:52)
A couple of things, mate. One, as we said, a chance to move abroad and do the thing we love was really appealing. And a funny story: this was for Cyberpunk. I remember making mobile games back in 2012, and in 2013 the first-ever Cyberpunk trailer came out. I remember thinking, if I could work on that, it would be something different. The opportunity came about; some friends I knew from Ubisoft had gone over there. There was a whole mess with the tests and the process, but we got there. It was a great experience, the longest project I've ever worked on, just shy of four years, and then I contributed to the DLC for Phantom Liberty. I didn't see it out to the end.

It was a wild experience, living abroad for the first time, by myself. I didn't move over with anyone, just me. I think you probably had more of a culture shock because you went to the other end of the world. With Europe, despite the language not being the same, there are cultural similarities, whereas with America, I feel we speak the same language, but there are some big cultural gaps.

Working on Cyberpunk was freeing as a level designer, because you had so many routes to offer the player. The Division was very much, "we've got mechanics that might solve it, but really your solution is shoot." In Cyberpunk you could stealth through, you could use dialogue, depending on how you upgraded your body you could unlock different routes, and if you'd really put into the perk system that way, you could skip most of the mission, even entire content, if you really upgraded yourself. It was a wild ride and an incredible experience. You mentioned BlizzCon when you came on mine; I got to go to E3 and Tokyo Game Show, which I'd only dreamed of while reading Edge magazine. You're there representing a game you're working on, with people you absolutely respect and are in awe of. It's no secret how Cyberpunk released, with ups and downs, but I wouldn't change the overall experience or ask for anything different.

Alex (39:48)
I won't make you get into the grim details, but I'm curious from your perspective: you were working on a game you were so obviously enamored with, a dream game, and then it launched the way it did. How do you personally navigate that?

Max (40:06)
It was very lonely, because it released during COVID. Most places do launch parties when a game comes out; sadly, we couldn't. My family wasn't there, and I couldn't go see friends because of lockdown. You're really disappointed, because the reviews start coming in really well, and my trust is in the team. You and I know that on teams of hundreds to thousands there's so much out of your control, and you've got to trust that everyone's pulling their weight. There's no such thing as a lazy dev; I've only met one in my entire career. Everyone else is the real deal, passionate and caring about this. So it's heartbreaking.

We were split between trying to fix the base game and starting Phantom Liberty, going back and forth. I'm very appreciative of this aspect of game development now. I'm sure it was very different for you when you were starting in games: once the game's on the disc, that's it. When I started making mobile games, I could work on a weekend and send out an update, and now teams can still build on what we have. It ended up being, other than No Man's Sky, one of the better turnarounds for a game. But it was tough. The situation of COVID, I don't think many did anything better. It was trust that we'd get there as a team. We may not have been singing, dancing, drinking in celebration, but everyone put their nose back to the grindstone and did a great job turning it around. I played a small role; hundreds of other incredible people put in the hard work. It was tough, but I wish it had been the great nine-out-of-ten game on launch that it is now.

Alex (42:24)
That it is now, I was going to say. It's become that.

Max (42:26)
Yeah, that it would have been at launch. But it's still a mark in gaming history in its own right, both good and bad. I appreciate that and don't take it lightly.

Alex (42:42)
Agreed. It's still making an impact and being talked about today. After CD Projekt, you went on a consultancy and contracting journey across various studios. What drove that transition, and what was it like shifting from within the bosom of a team to a more contractor role?

Max (43:06)
It came about because it was an opportunity. A designer doing contracting was a rare thing; from my experience, not many people were doing it at all. I noticed I was getting a few opportunities coming around. I want to make it clear that I love doing this for games. I'm just saying contracting makes you more money, and I'm not saying that as greedy; I'm not a millionaire, as you can tell from my small office. It was an opportunity to learn from different studios and different ways of designing. Cyberpunk, great project, was the longest I'd worked on, so I wondered what I could learn now and what different things could challenge me. I'm by no means a master of level design, which is my bread and butter. There are so many incredible designers who are way better than me. So it was a chance to see different studios and just be in the creative aspect.

When you make games on teams, there's politics involved, and I don't always mean that negatively, but it is a part of it. Now it's: I'm hired to do a job here, and if people like me or don't, or something's going on, I'm not involved in it. I'm here for a time period to solve this problem or get you to this stage. If we move on to the next, great; if not, there was a contract. One of my dream companies was Ninja Theory, and I got a chance to contribute. Sadly, as you and I both know, and many of the listeners, Ninja Theory is pretty much no more now. To do that before all was said and done was a dream come true. They were always innovating as a small team. I know some people weren't a fan of their take on Devil May Cry, but their level design for it was, to me, wow. The dynamism of it, and the combat, played really well.

I also helped out Ubisoft on Division Resurgence, and the last contract I did was Mafia: The Old Country. One big difference is that I'm always trying to learn, and as a contractor you don't have someone directly above you to ask "what are your thoughts on this?" It's either yes or no. Not cold, but more pragmatic.

Alex (46:34)
A little bit more transactional, almost.

Max (46:35)
Yes. That was a big shift. Then there's the money: how you operate that, and negotiating it each time. Some contracts last only a couple of months, some over a year, and you've got to manage that. It was also a great way to learn about managing a company. My company was first in Poland, then in England, so you're learning different financial rules, which are not always the most fun, but a great new thing to learn. I do not regret it, and it was a cool experience. Contracting seems more normal now, but at the time it wasn't.

Alex (47:22)
You're right. In the design space, I can only think of a handful of people across America who do it; there are more now. I love that angle, and I feel the same: a chance to learn little bits from lots of places, rather than staying in one place, growing and learning. You get more exposure to different structures, processes, approaches and tools. A good opportunity. So how long did you contract for?

Max (47:55)
About four and a bit years. Four and a half.

Alex (47:59)
And like you said, you started in Poland doing that, and then you moved back to the UK. What led you to take up a permanent role again, at People Can Fly?

Max (48:13)
A couple of things, mate. The first is that it's no secret the state of the industry, and how long that's been going on. It was clear to me that a lot of contracts were drying up. When I was working with Hangar 13, which is a great place to work and I can only speak highly of them, I asked what the chances were of the contract extending, and at that time they said not really.

I also recommend this to anyone who goes contracting: most contracts give you a one-month notice period. Demand three. Most companies wait until near the end of that month to tell you. It's nothing out of malice, it's just that things happen and it's hard to predict, so you've got to safeguard yourself.

At that point I also really wanted to be a lead. I wanted an opportunity to lead a team. I'd seen so many incredible leads shape my career, and I'd sadly seen some who weren't as great, but I really wanted that chance. People Can Fly got in contact with me and took a chance on me. That's how it came to be, mate. It'll be two years in December that I've been there. It's a very different skill set, leadership and management versus being in there. I'm fortunate that I still make levels as well as manage, and I really appreciate doing both.

Alex (50:00)
How have you taken to leadership? How have you found the process?

Max (50:04)
Depends who you ask. Look, mate, I've really enjoyed it. There are moments of finding your feet. I wish I could sit here and tell everyone listening I'm the perfect lead, but that's nonsense; I'll never be that. Some days I wake up and think, right, I've got a better understanding of this, and some days I wake up and think, I'm drowning in this situation.

It's tough to balance because everyone you manage is different. And what I didn't realize until I was at the more senior and principal level is that your team's growth and the game's growth don't always go hand in hand, and you've got to manage that. You have to love people, in my opinion, to be a good lead, because you've got to learn how to give feedback to each person, and what works for one won't work for another. We talk about cultural differences: if your team is diverse, with people from different parts of the world, they operate differently, so you need to understand how to communicate. You also need to know when it's time for open dialogue with your team, and when it's, "Hey, we've got deadlines, and if mistakes are made, it's on my head, not yours, so unfortunately, creative-decision-wise, we're going in this direction." It's not because your ideas are bad. It's because deadlines are here, and if something goes wrong, I'd rather it be my mistake than be costly to someone else.

But I love it. There are challenging days, but there's nothing better than watching my team grow into something I'm so proud of. It honestly feels weird; sometimes it feels like I'm not needed because they're doing such an incredible job, and you wonder, am I the problem? Watching them grow and deliver is some of the most amazing stuff. I do miss being more hands-on; I still get to do it, but my ownership isn't as broad. I'm fortunate to do this, and I don't take it for granted, because you've got people's careers in your hands. What I say to everyone who joins my team is that at one point we'll stop working together. I hope it's not for a long time, but my hope is that whenever you leave, you feel you've grown as a designer. That's my goal. It's not perfect every day, but that's the end goal.

Alex (52:54)
I love that. Not everybody's cut out for leadership; not everybody has the right makeup or the passion for it. The way you describe it, that desire to help people's careers grow every day, and seeing your team shine, is absolutely the right angle. Balancing that with IC work is always challenging. I'm conscious of time, and there are a couple of other questions I love to ask. You have a very personal story about how you got into video games and why you make them, and that's clearly fueled you through this career, and does daily. Has being in game dev changed you as a person?

Max (53:46)
I don't see how it wouldn't. The fact that I get to work with such incredible people, who make me feel like I'm the weakest link across the world, has been so eye-opening and humbling and inspiring. That changed me. And there's the aspect of games being a business. I'm not saying that in a jaded way, but you eventually pick up on it. As I get older there's more of a balance in that. I still want the quality, to give the best, and everyone I work with is the real deal. But there's a reality in it, especially in these times. I think you and I can both agree on the number of games that now come out and, instead of launch parties, as we discussed, people are saying farewell because the game didn't sell that well. I wish I didn't have to care about the business side, but you'd be foolish not to pay attention to it. So it changed a little of how I look at certain things. As a person, how I communicate is different now. I've lived abroad and worked with people all over the world. I'm not that same kid from the small town in North Yorkshire.

Alex (56:45)
I like that pragmatism. It doesn't dampen your desire to succeed, but it makes you more realistic about what you can do and when you need to do it.

Max (56:58)
Not every game is built with the same budget, whether that's financial, time or dev budget. You make the best with what you can, and as long as you can look in the mirror and say, "We gave it everything within the constraints we had," that, to me, is a victory no one can ever take away from you, no matter the Metacritic or the comments.

Alex (57:25)
Definitely agree. And what about your family? You grew up in a gaming family. How do they relate to your career and what you've achieved?

Max (57:37)
I still think some people don't get what I do. But I love chatting about games with my dad more now, because he'll say, "I've got an idea about this." He loved The Division; he sank thousands of hours into it. My brother still plays games. He loved Witcher 3 but wasn't a fan of Cyberpunk, which made me sad, so I was only a little bit hurt. And I don't know about you, mate, but because we worked on products, you've got a clear timeline of working from A to Z. I don't know how life would be if it were just going in and doing the same thing with no end. The job is its own journey, and I feel fortunate that at some point I'll finish this project, and at some point I'll do the next one, and that's really cool. My sister's still a bit embarrassed of me, but I'm always going to be the embarrassing older brother, mate, and that's not changing no matter how old I get.

Alex (58:54)
One last question: if you weren't making video games, what would you do?

Max (59:08)
Really tough. I don't know is the honest answer. The game industry isn't in a great place right now. But if for some reason I lost my job and could never get into the game industry again, after crying for a while, I think I'd try to transition into therapy and help people. Psychology of Video Games is a great podcast, if you've heard of it. Having that element of helping people, because I went through tough times, I'd love to be able to help in some way. That's something I'd look at.

Alex (59:56)
That's a great way of putting a bow on this conversation. It brings it full circle. Your day job sounds powered by that desire to give back, and then being able to introduce video games to other folks and help them grieve and recover and find friendship, satisfaction and achievement. That's a great message, and it feels very Max. That makes a lot of sense.

Alex (1:00:26)
Thank you, chap. I really appreciate your time. Great conversation, great journey, some great experiences you've had and continue to have. Thank you for making time.

Max (1:00:36)
No, I appreciate it, mate.